Episode 2 - Resistance

In this conversation, Sarah Dusek and Mona de Vestel discuss the theme of resistance. They explore how resistance can be a barrier that prevents us from exploring new territories and discovering hidden treasures. They emphasize the importance of recognizing and acknowledging our resistance, as well as the need to lean into it and explore what lies beyond. They also discuss the connection between resistance and fear, and how vulnerability and compassion can help us navigate through resistance. The conversation highlights the ongoing nature of resistance and the power of noticing and journaling to uncover new insights.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Exploring the Theme of Resistance
• 8:23 The Role of Vulnerability and Compassion
• 8:52 The Link Between Resistance and Opportunity
• 22:44 Journaling and Self-Reflection as Tools for Addressing Resistance

Transcript

0:01

Hi everybody, welcome back to the podcast. It is great to have you here with us. I am Sarah Dusek, founder of Enygma Ventures, an entrepreneur and investor. And I am Mona DeVestel, author and writing coach, helping people bring their stories and books to the world. And we are here together to share with you some of the ongoing conversations we've been having over the last year about the challenges of entrepreneurship, the challenges of doing life, the challenges of being a female, trying to navigate the challenges of managing childcare and spinning plates and doing many, many things. we just thought the idea of bringing our conversations to you all might be good for us all. So we thought we would talk about today a theme that has been cropping up in our conversations over and over and over and over again over the last year. And it's the very strange theme of resistance. Mona, do you want to tell us all? Because you are the person who helped me understand resistance. Tell us all what resistance is. Right, so the topic has been coming up a lot in the work that you and I have been doing together to work on your books. And resistance to me It's something that pops up in our lives that says, shall not enter this territory. I don't want to go there. And usually, usually, usually, it leads to this incredible discovery about what is behind that door that we're not willing to open? Usually there's a treasure that can be found on the other side of the door, but it's really obviously difficult. So resistance is like a wall. It's like a place that we do not want to go. It's like bumping up against something that puts some kind of distance between you and whatever the thing is. And we discovered I discovered it this last year. When you kept pointing out to me, Mona, why do you not want to go there? Why do you not want to talk about that? She said, I feel like you're resisting this or resisting that. And I was like, I'm not. I am not. What are you talking about? I'm happy to talk about anything. And then of course, what happens is we start to talk about something. We start to realize that there's a, there's elephant in the room, you realize, yeah, I'm not talking about that. Or I'm not going there. Or I don't want to engage with this topic or this area of my life. And so what I started to notice was there were all sorts of things that I was resistant or maybe it's maybe even use the word hesitant because resistant feels like, you know, I was actively putting up a barrier or a wall and I wasn't. consciously doing that, but it's the idea that we can be hesitant to go somewhere, hesitant to unpack an idea or hesitant to look at something that maybe we need to look at and unpack a little bit more Yeah, and I think there's usually a goldmine when we push through that barrier. I mean, you say you you weren't necessarily actively putting up a barrier, but I actually think that we do actively put up barriers and I use and I. No, we don't. We We don't know that we're doing it. And I think the interesting thing about resistance as a topic, it's like, how can we become more aware of the areas in our lives, the areas in our business, the areas in the work that we do, when we are resistant to something. So Mona, how do we know when we are resisting something? How can we know? Because I think it can be quite hard to know that we are necessarily resisting something unless you're super, super, super aware. it's really hard to know on your own, to be honest, that you're resisting. And the reason for that is because resistance is a barrier that we usually create for protection. For protection around this, we want to create, I think, the status quo, this barrier of safety or what we perceive to be safety. But what usually ends up happening is a stagnation because you're in this little harbor of repetition, right? Where you do this over and over again, you're like, this is safe, this is safe, this is safe. And then there's a whole ocean out there, right? And, you know, there's not even an acknowledgement of that because this is our realm, this is our world, this is how we do things. And usually it takes a catalyst, a person, or an event to say, you know, I've noticed you keep bumping up against that corner over here, did you know that there's the Atlantic Ocean on the other side of that reef or whatever it is, I don't even want to have a conversation about resistance. Really? Really? Are you serious? I'm serious, I'm like, I don't even know that I want to even talk about this topic. I don't even know why I feel like that. Isn't that so crazy? I'm sitting here thinking, I don't want to talk about resistance. I am resisting resistance. And yet, your best writing has come from piercing through resistance. Every time I've said to you, you know, I noticed that you're not going over here. What is this? What is this about? That's when the best writing has emerged. And usually the best breakthroughs, she's right folks, usually the best breakthroughs come when the veil is pierced and you go the other side. But that's like the force is strong, right? The force is strong with like, do not go over there. It's like the dark side, do not go there. And it's like, you know, even now I can feel it in my body. It's like, I don't want to talk about the things that I'm resisting. Well, what is the feeling, like what are you gaining by not talking about it, I guess? That's I think it's about trying to stay safe. I think it's about trying, not trying to rock the boat, not trying to uncover, you know, you just want to maintain the status quo. Just want everything to go back to being like under control, managed, everything in its box, close the lid, lock it up, move And I think the moment we start talking about, is there somewhere I don't want to go? Like, is there something I'm pushing against that I don't want to go there? I don't want to look at that. I don't want to change that. It was interesting. was having a conversation with an entrepreneur just a couple of days ago, who I was suggesting, should shift a marketing strategy. mean, something very like theoretically non -emotional, right? Okay. Maybe that we needed to pivot and shift a marketing strategy to which there was outrage and uproar. And was a very dramatic, don't go there. I do not have time for pivot. I do not have time for driving that change. I am not going there. And so much resistance to just an idea Exploring, having to change something, exploring, having to tweak something, exploring, having to go somewhere that you feel like maybe you don't have time for, don't have energy for that. Just, don't, I don't want to go there. I don't want to change my marketing strategy. Thanks. And it can be something as simple as that, right? But you know, sometimes we, when we notice we're having, that's how I know I'm resisting something. Having a reaction. I'm having a visceral reaction. to conversation, to contemplating change, to having to pivot, to having to adjust, to having to like do something I don't want to do. And and I don't always know why I'm having that reaction. I don't know why right this second, I don't want to talk about resistance. I don't know, but I can feel it. It's like I'm having a visceral reaction to like, do we really have to talk about this? I mean, do you think that there is a link between resistance and opportunity? In other words, what has your experience been in terms of piercing through that wall? I think Every time, like probably without fail, that I have bumped up against my own resistance to something. Every single time, it's like the resistance is an invitation into what's beyond. And I love that. And I hate that all at the same time, because it's like, it's an invitation to leave your comfort zone. It's an invitation to step into some form of change or some form of exploration. And in that moment, there is an opportunity for something else to happen. And of course that's unknown and it's unnerving and it's not guaranteed, but it's like, the more we can push through that pain barrier, the more that we can say, let's explore that idea. Let's explore if there's something in that concept of, you know, looking for a new marketing strategy. Maybe the other side of that is huge wins and huge, like maybe you have a marketing strategy that's not working right now and have to shift to something else. And maybe it's going to work a million times better than you ever could have possibly imagined. But you don't know that on this side of resistance, but it's like, there's an opportunity. If we can see our own resistance, if we can recognise our own visceral responses, you know, these strong feelings of like, don't want to change, don't want to go there, don't want to stop doing what I'm doing right now to do something else, don't want to have to pivot, don't want to have to embrace anything new. It's like if we can, if we can just look a little bit deeper through that and go, why? I love, I love asking myself the question. What are you afraid of? That for me is such a beautiful question. I was asking myself this question just this morning and I woke up and I was feeling a bit anxious when I woke up and I didn't really even know what I felt anxious about. It's like, I have a whole bunch of things bubbling up and down and lots of business challenges and lots of problems and you know, some days they're getting solved and some days they're getting worse and you know, but you know, and I just woke up this morning just feeling like... I am not on top of everything. I am not in control of everything that's going down in my world. And I just woke up feeling really vulnerable. But then when I just stood back for a millisecond and said, what is it that I'm actually really afraid of? It's like, I, I recognise like I could get up, put my armour all on, get up, tackle my day headlong. Or I could take a moment and go, what is that? Like, what is it that's making me afraid? What is it that's getting under my skin or what is it that I'm feeling or that I am anxious about or I'm worried about, or I want to fight when actually I need to like, just listen, listen to myself rather than like put the walls up and put the armor up and like go to war over something. It's like, actually, can I hear? Can I hear my own vulnerability? Can I hear my own like, that's making me feel uncomfortable. And usually for me, it comes down to some form of like, I'm afraid that's going to fail or I'm afraid that's not going to work or I'm afraid something's going to go terribly wrong and it's all going to come crumbling down around me. And we can pretend, we can like, you know, pretend none of that's real. Or we can go there and rather than resisting it and rather than resisting that, you know, like, what if this doesn't work or what if I don't solve this problem? Instead, we can like, we can just pierce the veil and ask the question and go, what is it that's stopping me? And you have asked me that question a million times over the last year. What are you afraid of? And often you don't know. Often it's not instantaneous to be able to say, well, actually, It's this five point plan. Here are all the things we're of. Often it just takes time and space and the ability to listen to ourselves, to actually even just scratch the surface and go, maybe it's this, maybe it's that. Yeah, and I think it also requires a set of tools for us to accept the invitation. Now the invitation may be from someone, a human being, a business partner, a coach or whatever, or it can be an internal invitation that you are allowing yourself to take, right? But either way, I think there needs to be some kind of permission. And with that permission, You need to go towards something. Like you can't just go to the unknown. think that's the problem. You need to trust that you have a set of tools in your toolkit that you can say, I'm going to use this to allow me to pierce through the resistance. And you know, it's interesting because I've witnessed you go through this process many, many times and push through many different, you know, walls. And usually the discovery is not what we feared. Like there is something on the other side that we didn't even anticipate was on the other side. I don't know if you find that to be true. 100%. I think the fear is just like, the fear is the resistance, right? It's almost like the fear is the resistance. The fear is like the wall of saying, don't want, I'm not going there because this is what I'm afraid of. But the moment that you pull the curtain back on that and the moment for me, like one of those tools, just like you were saying is, is being able to have a conversation with the things I'm afraid of or the things I'm thinking. And for me, writing those things down and like, or saying them out loud, it's like somehow getting them outside of yourself is really empowering because it allows you to look at it from another dimension. It allows you to kind of like step back from it. And it's no longer an ogre or a massive monster or a wall or an intimidating army coming after you. know, usually it's some kind of primal, you know, fear. And when we can say it out loud and own it, it somehow loses its power in quite the same way. It's no longer as big, it's no longer as mighty. And that allows you then to see what's beyond it and to make the discoveries and to see what's over there and to discover things you... either didn't know about yourself or about the situation or, you know, a major big breakthrough or personal, you know, a ha that changes your life. mean, we don't know what's on the other side, but what we do know is that every time we navigate our way through fear and we navigate our way through the stuff that wants to hold us back. There's always something on the other Absolutely. I love what you said about having a conversation with yourself or with the resistance. And I think that is a great tool because usually I find that when I have resistance, I tell myself a narrative, a story. spin a tale in my head about what is terrible on the other side of that door, right? Don't open that door, blah, blah. But If we allow ourselves to have a conversation, either with ourselves, with the resistance, then we allow the narrative to change. We allow the story to change. We allow something new to emerge. And I know that we have done this over the course of this year that we've worked together where we have conversations with our fear, our, you know, with love and with illness, with whatever grief. And it has been an incredible tool. And I know this may sound rather strange, perhaps, if you've never done it, but it's something that is not new. It's very old. But, you know, what I call automatic writing, which is you allow yourself to just write whatever comes through your mind, your pen, your computer. And you can specifically ask specific, you know, like your grief. What is my grief telling me? What is my fear telling me? Grief, what would you like me to tell me today? I've done that with cancer. Cancer, what would you like to tell me today? Because I'm a cancer survivor and it's been incredibly powerful, right? To allow this narrative to emerge and to say, fear, what can you show me today? I really don't even want to have this conversation. I find it tedious. Tell me what that's about. And something usually opens up a new story, a new narrative, a new doorway. Has that been your experience? I was just asking fear this morning as I woke up anxious this morning. I was asking fear this morning. What? I was asking myself, what, what am I afraid of? And then I, I, I started looking at my emails and I started getting into my work and I started getting like ahead of myself into my day. And I suddenly noticed there was a few, few emails in the mix there that were not making me very happy. And I started to feel really intensely angry, like I wanted the fire and brimstone to fall from the sky and like, eat these people up. know, really hardcore stuff. And then in my ear, I'm hearing, and I'm sensing, okay, go back to journaling. Maybe put your emails away. Maybe start the day differently. But I'm hearing, I'm hearing myself say... When you're afraid, you go to anger. We go because it's easier to feel anger than it is to feel afraid. I was like, It's true. And I was like, I'm feeling angry. I'm actually feeling angry because I'm actually feeling afraid. And it was, I'm scared. I'm, I'm afraid of the outcome of this thing and what's going to happen. And I'm, I'm feeling afraid and I, therefore I'm channeling that into, well, let's just be angry. Cause if we can be angry, then we can fight and we can have a war. And it's like, that is not the energy that is going to solve this problem. That it's not going to do any good. One. And maybe there's another way, but it's like, can you sit in your fear long enough? Can you sit in your fear long enough to really understand what it is that's really worrying you? That's really behind that. And can you give yourself, he was the real kicker for me this morning. Can you give yourself compassion because you feel afraid? Can you tend yourself in a kind and compassionate way? that doesn't just slap yourself around the chops and go, all right, let's go fight this thing. Can you be kind and say, you're feeling afraid. That's okay. It's normal. Human. Part of your experience of living right here on earth and having to deal with all the things that you get to deal with every single day. Normal. It's okay. It's okay to feel the way you feel. Let's go explore And let's go see what's behind that fear and see if we can figure out a different solution or a different path ahead. And a of hours later, I came down to work and I wrote a very different email than the one I would have written a few hours earlier. And it, and it changed the situation. Like almost instantly I got a reply back and, and, and it was like, yeah, of course. Yeah. Let's do it like that. Yeah. Yeah. And it was like, if I had stayed in my anger, if I'd have crept up against my wall of fear and pounded it with my fists, that wall would not have come down today. But because I was able to be kind to myself and as opposed to resisting my own fear and resisting my own, you know, all the things that were coming up. And instead of allowing myself to go to anger, I went to compassion instead. It was like, got totally different outcomes. We've got a totally different day. We got totally different possibilities So when you allowed that anger to crumble away into realizing that you were afraid, you allowed a new story to emerge. In other words, I think that's the key. The key is to push up against the wall of resistance and to allow a new narrative to emerge and to see what that narrative is. It sounds like you were able to do that by saying, why am I so angry? I'm actually scared. And that was the win. That was the gateway. That was the opening to a new perception, a new understanding of the situation, your ability to write an email differently and open a door. I think that's the guideposts of resistance. It allows us to understand something new in a situation that we're initially not willing to look at. question is what what does it what do you want to show me why what are you here and that's that's the challenge isn't it is to come up against the resistance and to go what are you here to show me what's behind what's behind my own resistance why do I not want to go there and what is it that lies beyond that you have to teach me and that you have to show me something. And the hard part is really just, well, it's two things I think. It's recognizing the resistance in the first place. So you're right. Sometimes we need someone else to help us get used to seeing it. And when we're used to seeing it, we'll get better at seeing it for ourselves. Thank you. And two, then we need to see it as a teacher. We need to see it as our own, there's something here for me to learn. There's something here for me to know if I can lean in. And that's the challenge. Can I lean into it rather than pull away? Because we automatically want to resist resistance. Like I said at the start of this podcast, I don't even want to have this conversation. I want to resist resisting, talking about resistance. But it's like if we can lean in, there are treasures to be had. There's a discovery to be had, something to know, something to learn, new territory for us to take. Absolutely. So have you pierced through the resistance of having this conversation? I you were gonna ask me that. Yeah, I mean, I think the challenge with even talking about resistance is admitting that you resist stuff still. it's like another layer of being honest with myself and honest with you all that I want to back off sometimes that being vulnerable is hard, that actually it's so much easier to resist being vulnerable, but that every time we are, every time that I choose vulnerability pushing away. It's always better. It's always better for my soul. It's always better for my outcomes. It's always better for my state of being. It's always better. It is better over and over and over better. But I think this quest is ongoing. I don't think that's a finite process of saying one and done. You know, I work through resistance the first time, I'm good. I mean, the invitation for vulnerability and authenticity is an ongoing invitation that you have to accept. And it's... daily, hourly, minutely. Yeah. And that's, that's the truth, isn't it? We can, we can show up. We're constantly choosing how we show up. And we're constantly faced with decisions as to how am I showing up in this moment? How am I showing up when I'm writing an email? How am I showing up when I'm recording a podcast? How am I showing up? And we either armor up or we strip it down. and we bring our whole selves to the table and I know it is so much better bringing your whole self to the table than it is bringing my armoured up version. But I think it's because as women, especially we've been taught that being vulnerable is, you know, meaning that you're weak. actually what we're discovering is that with your vulnerability comes showing your strength and stepping into your power because you're stepping into your whole self, your entire arsenal of who you are, as opposed to this two dimensional narrative I'm in control, I'm in control, everything's fine, everything's fine, I'm in control. And that's like a puppet. But you are multi -dimensional. And I think that when we step into that multi -dimensional self, this comes with vulnerability and courage, and of course pushing through the resistance. I think it all starts with noticing. This has been my big theme for the last year is just noticing, learning how to notice. Notice. Notice your reactions. Notice your emotions. Notice your feelings. Notice and to notice we have to give ourselves like half a millisecond of time. We can't run at the speed of light. and notice anything. We just cannot. And I think that's particularly hard for women and particularly hard for those of us who trying to make big things happen, raise children, run our homes, like do a million things. But I think this whole idea of resistance starts with noticing when you are resisting. I completely agree. And I think one of the things that I would invite everybody to do, because resistance and fear are such good buddies, they're such best friends, I think a good place to start is having a journaling of 15 minutes or so and saying, fear, what would you like me to know today? And just free write and see what comes up I can guarantee that something will emerge that will be like, interesting. That I was not thinking that this would be what would emerge from this conversation. I was not expecting today to hear, when you're afraid, you go to anger. That's where you go. You're angry because you're actually afraid and that is one of the treasures of like, just giving yourself a millisecond and asking great questions. Mm -hmm. Yeah, I love that. you everyone for joining us today. This was another great conversation with you, Sarah. Amazing. Thank you, Mona. Thank you, everyone, for joining us. It's been an absolute delight. And I am really glad I did not resist resistance. All right? everyone. Bye