Episode 6 - Imposter Syndrome

In this episode of the Women Doing Big Things podcast, Mona de Vestel and Sarah Dusek discuss imposter syndrome and its impact on women doing big things. They explore the origins of imposter syndrome and how societal conditioning has contributed to women feeling like they don't belong in positions of power. They also discuss the importance of reimagining what's possible and surrounding oneself with inspiring role models. The conversation highlights the need for women to hear their own voices, have confidence in their abilities, and build their own tables. Ultimately, they emphasize the power of community and sharing stories to overcome imposter syndrome.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 6:28 The Struggle to Belong and Be Accepted
• 15:29 Embracing failure to overcome imposter syndrome
• 19:42 Finding Your Voice
• 23:09 Imposter Syndrome and Thinking Big
• 25:34 The Power of Role Models and Building Community
• 34:09 Surrounding Yourself with Women Who Think Big

Transcript

0:00

everyone, welcome back to the podcast Women Doing Big Things. I'm Mona de Vestel. And I'm Sarah Dusek. And we're here to talk about how it's possible for women to do big things and not have it kill you in the process. That's I want to know the answer to. I love that, yes. And our topic for today is imposter syndrome, It's a big, massive topic, I think, especially for women doing big things as we step up into our power, into belonging and our authenticity. How do we claim that place? How do we make it our own? How do we feel in harmony with it and in balance with it? What do you think about that, Sarah? Is that something that has been on your mind? Yeah, mean, imposter syndrome, think is probably maybe the biggest issue that women wrestle with we often feel like we're stepping into shoes that don't fit. And that's the problem with imposter syndrome, that you feel like you don't belong. You shouldn't be here. You shouldn't be doing this. Who are you to think about doing this big thing? Mm -hmm. is the little voice that we've got to wrangle. And that's why I think it's so important that we recognize imposter syndrome and we talk about how to navigate it because it's a big deal for so many of us. It's a big Yeah, and I think, you know, the first thing that comes to mind for me is where does the imposter syndrome feeling come from? I feel like it's something that's handed to us or to me, especially as a woman, as a woman of color, as a queer person. I feel like these three labels, which is to say that I'm not in the, I guess, power structure of, yeah, I mean, I'm, you know, I'm sort piercing and pushing past some doors, you know, which then there's that message that has been handed down to say, hey, you don't belong here. Hey, this is not yours. You know, these are not your shoes. But where does that come from? Like who, you Is there something that was handed to us and then we simply because for anything to work you have to ingest and incorporate it and say, yeah, I agree with this. So I guess the key is to not agree with the imposter syndrome and to say, I see you imposter syndrome. I recognize you. No, thank you. I belong here. it's a real hard one because I think historically women have not belonged in the workplace. Women have not belonged in Fortune 500 companies. Women have not belonged on the ringing the bell of the NASDAQ or the New York Stock Exchange. We've not had a lot of history behind us that has said we belong in big places, like important places, places of power, places of responsibility, places of significance. And I, I think we're still carrying the burden of that. We're still carrying the challenge of navigating what it looks like to be a woman in society today. doing big things, it's still not normal. And we're still really beginning to just, you know, we're still trying to sort of press through this elusive glass ceiling where it is more normal for women to be doing big things. so historically, I think that causes us problems. There's always this tension of like, yes, we can, but no, we don't. And so because we don't, we don't think, yes, we can. And that's what makes imposter syndrome real. And I think that's the backdrop within which all of us exist with trying to make things happen Yeah. But I think, you know, when you said it's it still doesn't feel that normal or still not that normal in society, right, for women to step into those those roles. And you know what I forget, I don't know about you, but it's not that long ago that things really radically shifted. Last week, it was the 50th anniversary of women in this country in the United States being able to open. credit cards and bank accounts without the permission of their husbands. 50 years ago. That means it blew my mind. I was like, 50? Come on. That's 1988, like less than, what is that? 40 years, just less than 40 years ago. It was 1988 when women could have a bank loan without someone co -signing for them. So it's, it's, it's my lifetime. It's your lifetime. our mothers lived with this reality. This was their day to day. generation, we're one generation removed from a world that wasn't giving women permission to do anything without someone else hand holding their hands. And so that's the backdrop we step into this conversation with. It's like society has not been conditioning us to do big things. Society has not been telling us it's okay for women to do big things. Society has not been giving us like a golden check saying, you go for it. You know, that's not the world we've been living in. And that's what makes it hard for women to do big things. I think the other sort of reality women have to contend with is the reality that it doesn't go away either. It's like, surprised myself even with the sense of, you know, I built one successful company, sold it for over a hundred million dollars. And you'd think after that, you'd think, I am something, right? But the reality is, the world constantly seeks to put you back in your box. So that's definitely like been interested in putting me back in the box. It's like, don't get ahead of yourself, lady. Don't think you are anything because we still don't want you to do more. We don't want to give you any more money. We don't want to make it easy for you to continue to succeed. I definitely thought to myself, it would be easy second time around, but it would be easy to raise a venture capital fund after being a successful entrepreneur myself. It would be easy to start another business and go again and it be successful. And it's not, it hasn't been. so not only is that, well, that's reality and imposter syndrome in the mix, right? So there's, there's two sides of that coin that says it's not easy for women to succeed, period. Mm and two, then there's the belief, there's the inner belief that you're having to wrestle with. It was like, well, should I be doing this? Am I capable of doing this? Am I capable of running a venture capital fund? Am I, am I, am I able to manage hundreds of millions of dollars? Should I be entrusted with that? And it's like, I just don't think any man ever asks those questions. It's like, I just don't think that's a reality that the men wake up in the morning and they go, Should I be a wealth manager managing billions of dollars of assets today? I just don't think they think that. Whereas the reality is we wake up and not that we think that we're not capable because I don't ever really doubt my own competence. I know I'm competent, I know I'm capable, but what I do doubt is whether the world's going to let me do what I think I want to And if I'm going to be able to get in the rooms that I need to get into. And so my imposter syndrome is not so much about my own self doubt. My imposter syndrome shows up in ways that says, I just don't know that this is gonna be possible for me. Like, I just don't know if I'm gonna be able to break that ceiling. I just don't know. And because that doubt exists then, sometimes I wanna back off. Mm -hmm. I just want to go, it's too hard. It's too hard. It's too difficult. I just can't, just can't do that. And then that makes me think I don't belong here. I shouldn't be doing that. I should go play it safe somewhere else. and that's so frustrating. and I, I, I genuinely think that's true for a lot of women. It's, Yeah, that's a huge valid question. They might not let you. In fact, you might have to take your seat at the table, you know, because you're not, the invitation is not in the mail. It's not. I can relate to your feeling of, it's not that I don't feel that I'm competent. It's that how did they let me in? I can't believe I got, like they let me in. I got past the doors. What happened? Yeah, you know, I remember standing in front of an auditorium of students on my first day of teaching university and feeling like, have been invited here through these doors to educate at the highest level of education in this country. And I'm the one to educate these people to write. How did they let me in the door? When I looked around, no one looked like me. Everybody was male. Everybody was at least 20 to 25 years my senior and of European descent. And I was this queer, black, female professor. And I thought, I wonder how long I'll be allowed to stay here. I better make the most of it. So I think that's a really important valid fear. don't think it's an unfounded fear to say, I don't know if I can get past this glass ceiling. I don't know if I can do this as far as like, will they let me? You know, will I be allowed? Will I be crushed in the process? Because that is the dark side of the imposter syndrome is that the other facet, which is what is the cost of me stepping into these shoes? What will happen to me? What will I live through? What will I have to face in order to be allowed to remain here? Yeah. what will it cost me is a really, really interesting question. And I think that question often makes us back off. Because often we think the cost's too high, the cost to my family is too high, the cost of my wellbeing is too high. And I think, I think everything about imposter syndrome is designed and the dark side of it is all about design to trying to keep us small and playing safe. playing small, backing off. And that's what we are really wrestling with when we're talking about imposter syndrome is how do you navigate the very strong instincts to back off, to navigate the pull that says, the cost of this is just going to be too much and then back off. It's like putting myself out here in this way, in this time, in this place is too much. And it's That's then, that's the thing that makes you want to go, I'm going to pull back. Maybe, and you know, the other one is like, this is too much for my kids. Like this is, this is too much pressure. This is, this is too much me out there in the world. It's going to harm my family. I'm, I got to back off. And all of that is about imposter syndrome. All of that is about, this is not the place for me. This is not where I belong. And all of that, that struggle to shrink back and make ourselves smaller is, it's very compelling for women. But I think there's at the heart of all this, there's the question which part of the imposter syndrome is real and which part is not real? sometimes people feel like, okay, I've been letting through the door. I don't know how they let me through this door, but I don't doubt my abilities. So I know I belong here. But there are some people who feel like, I don't even know if I can do this. I don't know that I'm the one that I'm qualified to do this. And that is a very real feeling for people. So there seems to be two camps, in other words, the people who do feel like, no, no, I have the ability, I have the capabilities, I have the credentials, I know what I'm doing. I just can't believe I'm at this table. And then there are people who are like, I can't believe I'm at this table because I'm not even sure that I belong here because I don't even know that I know what I'm doing. we're all making it up as we go along, all of us. But for some people that's crippling, like they convince themselves and I say that because they are qualified, like they have credentials from some of the the highest, best educational institutions in the world, an MBA from Harvard and you're like, I don't know, do I know what I'm doing? And it's like, yeah, you know what you're doing. But somewhere along the way, the message got crossed it starts seeping in with the poison of misogyny. I mean, really, Yeah. I think maybe that's one of the benefits. There aren't many, many benefits of being an entrepreneur, but maybe this is one benefit of being an entrepreneur in the, in the sense that you know that you're having to figure it out. Like the whole entrepreneurial journey is figuring out and not knowing and figuring out, not knowing and figuring out. And so maybe you get more comfortable. with this feeling of, don't know the answers or I don't know the outcomes or I don't know the solutions because you're having to figure them out and make things up as you go along. And I'm, I am building the table and that's, you you said you use that expression earlier, Mona, with like this, you know, there are no seats for you at the table, but so you get used to building your own tables. And I have definitely got used to building tables and, inviting other women to come and sit at tables with me. And I, and I think genuinely that is what women, that is what we have to do. We do have to get used to building the tables that don't exist for us yet. And we do have to get used to inviting other women to come sit alongside us and help build more tables because that's what it's going to take for more women to be in positions of power. And that's what it's going to take for more women to be able to do big things. But I think you're right in the sense of the doubt that says, I don't know that I can, is very real. it's very real. I don't know that this is possible. My version of that is I don't know if this is possible. But my answer to that is I'm going to try anyway. And this is where it links back to like being comfortable with failure, right? The more comfortable we are with not getting it right first time, not being perfect, not having it all signed, sealed and delivered. the more confident and the more capable we can be with trying. And imposter syndrome says, if you can't do anything perfectly, don't show up at all. If you're not going to be world class at this, don't do it. Whereas, you know, the reality is if we don't try, we will never know the possibility of whether we can or not. And so when I'm wrangling that little voice and I'm struggling with, I don't know if we can. don't know if this is possible. I don't know if I, if we, I can pull this off or not. I know I'm capable and confident, but whether I can pull this thing off or not, I just don't know. My answer to that is, well, let's see. Let's give it a try and see what happens. And if I'm not afraid of failing, or if I have a capacity to fail, if I have the capacity to bear something, me not pulling something off and me not being successful. then I can try. And as we've talked about before, it's only when we're trying that the impossible is actually possible. Yep. I love that. And like with failure, for me, my field to combating imposter syndrome, like combating my fear of failure is banking my victories in this little treasure pouch and saying, you've had many victories in the past. And when I'm at the heart of the imposter syndrome or at the heart of the fear of failure, whatever it is, I take a little bite of my treasure pouch, you know, and I say, Okay, I remember what it's like to be able to do something that I thought was impossible. I pierced through this. I can do it again. You know, for me, that's huge. I have to have something that says to me, remember, this is a scaffolding that you're climbing on it. You know, you were at the ground level before, and now look, you have this complete horizon above, you know, that's beautiful. This view is incredible from up here. But there's so much more to climb. So I think that's the fuel for me. I don't know what your fuel is. I am driven by action. I'm driven by making things happen. And possibility of making things happen makes me excited. Makes me feel alive. And I'm a visionary. That's the other thing that probably fuels me is being able to see things that are not reality yet and have a vision for making them a reality. a vision probably fuels me. Cause I've always got a vision for something or other. And that is kind of what motivates me. I want to, I want to bring the change that I can imagine. I want see the change that I can imagine in my head. So I think as far as imposter syndrome goes, think I allow the vision voice to be louder. So it's like my own internal compass is driven by a vision, a mission. I'm always on a mission. And so I can't allow any other voice to be louder than my own internal. Hmm. compass. And that means I have to be in tune with my compass. I have to be in tune with my mission. have to be, I have to have a sense of what my mission is at any sort of moment in time. But I guess from a wider perspective, the question I would be asking is, can you hear your own voice? Because often the imposter voice is not your voice, right? It's not It's like the little demon on your shoulder, it's your mother, it's like that school teacher that berated you, it's some other voice, it's that misogynist down the hall, whatever it is, it's some other voice, it's not your voice. And so the question for me is, can I tune into and sink down into listening to my own real voice? Can I hear Because if I can hear myself, that voice is amplified and it can drown out any other voice. Mm -hmm. The hard part of course is learning how to do that. And the hard part is allowing yourself time and space to actually hear you and hear your heart and hear the things you care about and hear what's important to you and hear what really matters to you. Because allowing that voice to be your compass, to be your guide. as opposed to every other external voice that may be chattering away at you. I think that's so powerful that you're relying on your voice because nobody can take away your voice. think that is like the flicker at the center at the core of yourself, right? That can't be extinguished. And if you are allowing yourself to have time and space to hear that voice, then you can't lose your way, both these things that you and I are talking about is about ultimately having confidence, which is the complete antidote to imposter syndrome, Confidence as opposed to like disbelief with imposter syndrome, you know, disbelief of some kind. And both the past you know, it creates a stepping stone to creating confidence in yourself or in your scenario, whatever your scenario is. But the ability then to be able to sink in and hear yourself and hear your own sense of direction. it's your own compass with your own voice. And I think so many of us do not know what our own voices sound like. We are so lost in the world of everyone else's voices, everyone else's demands on us, everyone else's choices for us or expectations of us. And actually being able to hear your own voice is really, really... really powerful. Yeah, and I think it's the ultimate power because your voice is inherent to you and it's internal. It's not dependent on any external factors that you can't control. And I think that is the compass. I think that's the compass for me anyway. That's gonna be my compass. Yeah, I think that's how we find our own courage because that's really what we're talking about is how do we find our own inner confidence? How do we find the courage that we need to do the things that we want to do? And that for me is a big, that's a big thing. It's like, can I hear myself? Because if I can hear myself, I know I'm not, I can't deny myself. I know I have to listen. Mm -hmm. That's beautiful. Do we think that imposter syndrome is contributing to women not thinking bigger? If so, how? It would make sense to me that imposter syndrome would be linked with women playing it safer, playing smaller, not thinking big. Because it innately is connected with this idea of, thinking, here's my place. Like, here's where I do belong. here's what's acceptable. Whereas when we're talking about women doing big things, we're talking about women shattering glass ceilings and making things happen that have never happened before and doing wilder things than most of us spend our days imagining. I do think imposter syndrome can frame our thinking because probably what it does is it sets the boundaries of where we belong. It says this is the boundary with where you live. there is an invitation to constantly reconfigure that narrow little playpen that we are given as women and say, is where you play. And to rethink and say, actually, the entire world is my playing field. There's no playpen because there's no limit. the imposter syndrome, there's this confinement. the opposite is the freedom of the playing field of the world, essentially, right? So I think, I think it's an incremental process. It's like you said, it's a not a one and done, right? It's a constant revisiting of, okay, I'm going to do this, I'm going to go this way, I'm going to, you know, keep thinking bigger, but it's like a constant process. It's not like, I did it. have to keep reimagining and reimagining. I know when I first started out as an entrepreneur, what I could imagine was a whole lot smaller than what I can imagine today. But it's almost like the incremental notching up of what you can imagine of where the ceiling is. It's really important that we keep reimagining. It's like we don't get stuck with what we imagined five years ago. You have to keep reimagining. And in some ways, this is where your stepping stone thing comes in. In some ways, what you have experienced or where you have succeeded should be impetus to keep reimagining and keep removing the goal posts and rethinking about what's possible and what should be possible. And hopefully we'll... We'll see some great role models along the way, right? That might also inspire us and help us keep imagining bigger than we ever did before. I remember the first time I walked into a room full of female founders and CEOs. And I had never been in a room where there was only female founders and CEOs in the room. I mean, I was very used to just being like on my own some. and not being in, in, in, in a sphere where there were lots of, lots of women. And it was so life transforming. mean, I can't even describe how life transforming it was. I mean, it literally rocked my world because suddenly it was literally like my own imagination shackles fell off. It was like, because of these other women in the room were talking about what they were doing next. And some had sold companies and some were now running for office Some were now building billion dollar companies. It suddenly sort of woke me up in a way that, made me think, wow, there's more people like me. There's people out there that, that are thinking bigger than I am and they look like me. And, and it, I mean, we say it all the time and you can't be it if you can't see it. I mean, we, we, we know this is true. We know how important role models are. But I just remembered just how powerful it was to sort of be in a room where I was a very small fish in a big pond. But the people in the pond were people who were like me. There was not, you know, they were not, they were mothers and daughters and sisters. you know, they, they had lives that were not wildly dissimilar from my own. hearing them talk and hearing them just. explain why it was so important that women did think bigger and did think about, you know, taking a political office or building a billion dollar company or just doing something extraordinary that had not been done before. sat, the woman I sat next to, was inventing a biotech company that was inventing a cancer drug. And, you know, she's a dear friend now and has gone on to sold her company. And I remember thinking, you're doing what? You're literally curing cancer. But it was suddenly like exposure. that's why I think women have maybe, know, we men cottoned onto this idea long, long, time ago, right? That the boys club was powerful. We have to realize just how important and just how powerful. not only for doing business with each other, but for helping us reimagine what's possible for our own lives. And being in a room with other women and being connected with women who are also ambitious and dreaming and imagining a bigger life for themselves is so helpful, was so helpful for me because I suddenly, I suddenly realized, it was really important that I execute on the company that I was building. Like, actually, okay, don't just play at this thing. Go get this done. Build a big company. You know, make it valuable. Go do the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. It's like, this one thing that you're doing right now, probably not going to be the only thing you do for the rest of your life. Like, let's go get this done. Cause there's more for you to do. And it was suddenly like, okay. This isn't my ceiling right here. What I'm doing right now. You mean that's not my ceiling? No, it's not your ceiling. It's like the first rung on the ladder. It's like, can you execute on this rung so you can get on with the next rung and the rung after that and the rung after that? And I think that's what women need. We need to see each other. We need to hear each other's voices. We need to champion each other and we need to be in the same room as each other. We need to be in community with each other. because we need to not be ashamed to be talking about doing big things. We need to be inspired that if someone else is talking about it. I remember that same meeting I'm talking about, there was a woman talking about winning a billion dollar government contract for her business. I was like, I barely concluded in my brain at time. I was like, I said to the person next to me, did she just say billion? And she said, yeah, she has a cybersecurity company. She's implementing cybersecurity for government agencies. And I was like, holy cow. Okay. There are some smart women in this room. And so that's my litmus test now. It's like, I don't want to be in rooms where I'm the smartest person in the room. I want to be in rooms where women are talking about doing crazy, amazing, incredible things. I want to surround myself with women who are thinking bigger than I am. Because if I'm in that place, imposter syndrome doesn't even have like a, you know, I mean, yes, I can go, I'm not as smart as she is. But chances are that woman's pulling a seat up to the table for me to come sit table that she built and I can see what's on her table and I can go I like this table let's go build another one and create more seats and that's what we've got to do and that's how we're going to overcome this constant repetitive I shouldn't I couldn't I won't we've got to put ourselves in places where we're being inspired and motivated. That's so powerful. And I think when you walked in that room with female founders and CEOs, there is the component of witnessing. think that's really powerful. It's like you witnessed these women and their intelligence and capabilities. But in that process, you were witnessed as well. And in some ways it sounds like, I don't know what you think about this, but there's the piece about being given permission to do something big. whether somebody directly gives you permission and says, Sarah, I give you permission or by seeing and witnessing somebody who is getting a billion dollar contract to do cybersecurity for her company, you're giving yourself permission and you're saying, I am going to do this. I'm going, I sold my company for a hundred million dollars, but this woman is building, you know, billion dollar contracts. Like I can do this. I can do whatever it is. Maybe it's not about the money, whatever it is, but it's The vision of this big vision, it gets amplified by the presence of others and that permission that we receive, that validation. Like, yes, I see you and you see yourself and they see you. You know, I've been writing about witnessing a lot lately in my new book. I think that power is very, very important, especially for underrepresented, like, I mean, female founders, but also Black writers, queer writers, people who have been told like, your voice doesn't matter. You're not part of the canon. And someone says, no, I see you. I give you permission to speak your voice and to tell your story. I think that's really an important component. What do you think? think it's so, so, so important. I think you're a hundred percent right. I think just being in that room, I felt seen and like no one was saying to me, Sarah, you have permission to go build a hundred million dollar company. Nobody's saying that out loud, right? But suddenly I'm feeling like I have permission because other women are doing really, really extraordinary, far greater things than, than I am doing. And suddenly I'm feeling like, I want to do I want to do that too. And they can do it, therefore I think I can do it. And if they can do it and they're not wildly different than me and there are some similarities, then I can do it too. Yes. So ladies, this is why we decided to do this podcast. was like, could we help build a real life community online? When we talk about the things that we're doing, we support one another. We share our stories that help us shed the shame and the fear and the lack of confidence and impulsion to like, you know, play small. Could we help bolster each other by being in community here together? Because we would love that and we would love to hear your stories. So please comment, please share your stories, please tell us about the big things that you are trying to pull off and let us cheer you I think this is how we fight the imposter syndrome in all of us. You never know when by sharing your story, someone else will see themselves reflected in you and they will be invited to step and take a seat at the table and think bigger. So I can't wait to read your stories. Let's beat this demon together ladies Impostor Syndrome Thank you so much for joining us. We love being with you. We love being with each other, but we love you joining us even more. So thank you for joining us today. We can't wait to see you Thank you everyone. can't wait to see you next time. Bye. Bye!