Episode 9 - Burn Out

In this episode, Mona De Vestel and Sarah Dusek discuss the topic of burnout and how it affects women. They share their personal experiences with burnout and the different shades and levels it can manifest in. They emphasize the importance of recognizing the signs of burnout and taking action to avoid it. They also discuss the role of motherhood in burnout and the need for women to give themselves permission to ask for help. They highlight the need to challenge societal expectations and beliefs that contribute to burnout and to prioritize self-care and well-being.

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Welcome everyone. Thank you for coming back to our podcast Women Doing Big Things I'm Mona DeVestel, writing coach, and I am here with Sarah Dusek. Hi everyone. We're here to talk about women doing big things and the things that get in our way from making big things happen and doing big things. I'm so excited about today's topic because it's so relevant. And today's topic is burnout. So we'd like to talk to you about what burnout means to you, what it means to us, and how we can avoid it. Burnout is a really massive topic that affects a lot of us. And I think a lot of us suffer in silence from burnout. We're burnt out and we don't even talk about it. We're so burnt out. We're so dead inside, but we're still going through the motions and That's what burnout really brings to mind for me. I had a, it felt catastrophic to my life in my mid twenties. when I suffered from burnout the first time, my first full on experience with burnout. But I think there are all sorts of shades of burnout. burnout can look and feel very different for many different people, but the heart of it is. You are exhausted. You are feeling dead inside. Maybe you are numb. Maybe you have run out of energy, run out of fire, run out of oomph to make anything happen. And you are living life in maybe one or two dimensions, certainly not three or four dimensions. And burnout is a soul sucking energy draining killer. I love what you say about shades of burnout. because there's a trap in burnout where for me, I might think, burnout is like when I'm in the hospital, you know, what I'm like, which by the way has happened to me being so exhausted that I end up having pneumonia and am in the hospital. So then I think to myself, that's burnout. But you're saying shades of burnout, which I think is a very important thing to take into account, which are, there are levels. It's like little, you know, levels of, I'm entering the zone of burnout. And I love what you said about operating in two dimensions or two arena, certainly not in three or four. That could be a good sign that you know, I am in burnout. I am like going full speed with my work, going full speed with motherhood and there is nothing left. There's no self care, there's no social this, there's no that, there's no that. It's like, you know, something's way out of whack. And I think that's, it's really important to remember those shades, those levels, those Like you reach one level and then you're in burnout zone, but you're level one. But for me, I don't see it. I don't see that I'm in level one. I see it when I'm in level five, like red, red zone. Maybe purple zone when I'm approaching that hospital visit, but that's about it. And I think that's true for a lot of women. I think we don't notice the shades. And that's why I think this conversation is so important because I think we all know what collapsed on the floor can't function. You're in the hospital, you're physically unwell, you know, very, very unwell. know what that looks like, but what we don't know is all the shades that lead to that moment. And, and sometimes when that moment comes, it's a shock with like, how did I get here? But that there were warning signs, like all the way along that got there. And I, as I said, I, I experienced very catastrophic burnout when I was 25. So I hit my midlife, my quarter life crisis with a vengeance. And I was more than exhausted. It turned me into a quivering. Jelly -like wreck. was having panic attacks left, right, and center, like uncontrollable panic attacks left, right, and center. And I was physically and mentally unwell, like really unwell. I can't function. I can't work. I can barely get myself out of bed. I mean, it was very, very brutal. But coming back from that experience, and it took me about 18 months, two years to sort of really recover from it, was a long, slow process. What I realized was, and what it helped me see was moments in time when I'm going in that direction, like things that I'm doing in my life that are taking me over there, as opposed to keeping me on a track that is life -giving and soul -sustaining and not taking me towards utter complete and utter meltdown. And in some ways I now look back on that time, which was terrifying and confusing and horrific. But I look back on it and go, that moment did me such a favor. It was, it was such a catalyzing event for me because I knew I don't ever want to go here again. I don't, I don't want to get here. And I think. A lot of people don't necessarily get there, but they live in the shades of being on the way to there. And that's one of the biggest problems for women, we're living in very dark shades that are taking us towards burnout all the time. And we don't even realize it. Yep, I think that's right. We don't even realize it. And I think maybe what would be helpful for people would be to talk about how do we realize that we're getting there? because I think the problem for me anyway, and I think for a lot of women is we're such warriors. And I use that word deliberately that we are used to just trudging ahead, like forging ahead, pushing through, push through the pain, push through the discomfort, so I think there could be like little posts along the way that says you are now leaving the zone of life affirming, soul sustaining life. You you have left that territory. You are now in burnout. It still looks familiar and you might still feel comfortable because Discomfort is familiar as you push through and forge ahead in your warrior zone, warrior mode. However, there is another way. I was having a really interesting conversation with an entrepreneur just this last week who waited a whole hour before she finally said in the conversation, the thing I really need to talk about is I'm feeling really, really burned out. And I was like, we should have headlined with this. We should have started here an hour ago and spent our hour talking about how are we going to take care of you? But the interesting thing for me was she had no expectation of what we were going to do about that. It was just like, I need you to know, it's an issue, but like I'm dealing with it. it was like, it's a big issue, but interestingly, She flagged a couple of sort of telltale signs for me that she was getting near the very, very, very, very, very bad zone, which were. Not feeling the joy, not feeling the love of what you're doing anymore. It's like the zeal, the passion, the delight, the thrill of whatever it is you do with your days and the work that you do or the thing that makes you alive is gone. It's like a, I liken it to like having a fire and suddenly... The fire is doused and that wood is wet. And it's like, however many sticks you try and rub together, how much gasoline you pour on that thing. That wood is not like coming back. It's like really, really hard to get it to come back to life. And so when you're noticing that your fire is getting dim and it's not out completely, but you're noticing that The things that did used to bring you joy or did used to bring you life or you did love, even doing the things you normally would do that you would like doing. You're no longer liking doing them, whether that's work or personal. Then you know, I have lost my spark. My fire is going out or it's gone out and it's really hard. This is the interesting thing I think about burnout. It's really hard when your fire is completely out and there's not a spark left. It is so difficult to relight that sucker. And that's why I was saying it. When I fully was in full, full on fledged burnout, it took me two years to really start to feel like myself again and come back to life. It was a long process. so catching ourselves, keeping our sparks alive. Keeping our fire burning is really, really critical. Cause once that thing's out, we're in a whole heap of trouble. And I, said to her this last week, okay, we got to, we got to almost stop doing anything. We have to like, take this serious. Like our lives depend on it. cause if you lose that, you're dead inside. everything is affected. And so I said to her, we've got to look really, really long and hard about stopping. Like What can you stop going through the motions on? What can you stop doing? What can you give yourself a break on? And I said, this is, this is not just about, okay, maybe I'll just keep trying to grow my business a little bit. You've got to think about pulling back. pressing the pause button and really being serious about taking care of yourself. Because if you go out, your business is totally going out. Like not come, it's not coming back. You're losing everything. So you are really, really critical in this equation. Two things that you said that are just really helpful for me, which is when you've lost the joy and you've lost the spark, that's how you know. That's another sign post that says, okay, time out, let's do something about it. And I love what you said about doing something about it, which is one of the things that you said, and it's so hard for me to do, is give myself permission to cancel things. I don't cancel things. In fact, you and I were going to meet last week and I said to you, I'm sick, but like, of course I'm meeting. I mean, it didn't even cross my mind that we weren't going to meet. And you were like, let's cancel. And I was like, wow, yes, let's cancel. That's great. It's almost like, am I allowed to do that? Do I have permission to press pause on my life for a millisecond because I'm not doing very well? Yes, you do. You absolutely, 100 % do. And I think as women, we often don't. We just, as you said, we just plow on, we just try and push through, we put our heads down. But there is a consequence to living like that. It is not sustainable for week over week, month over month, for the life to be being sucked out of you and to keep going. Because if you do keep going, what you will get left with is absolutely nothing at the end. There will be nothing left of you if we ignore all the signs that the life is being drained out of us. And I know... it's really hard to say, I'll just press pause. I'll take a step back. I'll stop pushing. It's really, really hard to say that because we get stuck in our heads with everything revolves around me. If I don't keep going, the world is going to fall apart. But there's an amazing quote from Bertrand Russell that says, something to the effect of we are definitely on the path towards a nervous breakdown, i .e. burnout. If we think we have overinflated our importance in everything. So that's another sign for me. So the first sign is. I'm losing my joy. I've lost my spark. My energy is gone. The second is if I'm over inflating how important I am to everything that I'm doing. If I'm saying things like everything depends on me. If I don't do it, this doesn't happen. Nobody gets it quite like I do. Nobody's as capable of doing this job quite the way I do it. All of those kinds of phrases and sayings and thinkings. where we're over inflating our own importance. we can feel those things are very true when you're an entrepreneur and the world is, your business is revolving around you, especially if you've got a small, relatively small business, right? And everything is revolving around you. It's very easy to really believe that that is the case and to say everything is going to, you know, go to, go to pot if I don't do this. But the more we live in that place. the more we're setting ourselves up to fail and the more we're setting ourselves to be on the path towards burnout. Even the ability to ask for help, right? When you can't ask for help, That's a sign you're in trouble, that you're on a pathway that is leading towards burnout. Not being able to ask for help, not being able to say, I'm really struggling. Not being able to say, this is all a bit much right now. What can someone else do to help me? What can I push the pause button on? What can I cancel? What can I quit doing? What do I have to take a step back from? Those are all signs that we're on the wrong path. And getting on a better path is how we make big things happen. We don't make big things happen staying on this other path. It's impossible to make big things happen and be on the path towards burnout. Those two things do not go together. They don't, yeah. And I think, you know, I'm gonna say something really taboo for, this is addressed to mothers and women doing big things who are also mothers. I think it's easy to recognize that there's the joy has left the station, you know, in your work. But sometimes that happens in motherhood as well. You know, where... Maybe you're keeping your business intact and you're finding all the joy in the work, but you're just forging ahead with your mothering and you're like, well, everybody's fed and everybody's, you know, whatever, but I'm have I had a meaningful conversation with my child recently? Have I done a fun game where I felt genuine joy from this? Or am I just going through the motions? And And this happens to me every time I'm in between au pairs because I don't have that. I don't have that time. I don't have the luxury of yeah, we'll play Monopoly. That was hilarious. It's like, we're not playing Monopoly. Are you out of your mind? You know, so it's really taboo and hard to say out loud because we're trained, I know from society, mothers, there's infinite joy to parenting and never do I ever feel like I've lost the spark of parenting these children. Yes, I do lose the spark. Do I stop loving them? No. But do I lose the spark of like, this is so fun? Sometimes it's not, it's not fun, you know? I know exactly what you're talking about. I mean, I think parenting is the hardest job in the entire world. I think some people absolutely do love it and they do sail through it like they were designed for that job. And it's the best job in the world. And for the others of us, it is harder and it's difficult and it's exhausting and it's not. Ending it doesn't end. and when you have a day job and a parenting job, you basically doing two full time jobs at the same time, I know when I'm starting to lose patience with my kids, I'm starting to be grouchy and angry and not being a happy mom that I'm getting into the place that you're talking about, Mona. When I don't have capacity for them and I'm feeling under pressure and not feeling the joy after the 15th time of asking them to put their shoes on. or to tidy their stuff up or whatever it might be. when I'm finding myself at the end of myself with that, I know I have to pull back. I know, okay, I'm going into the danger zone. I'm going into the place. And I say to my kids, guys, I'm, I'm getting into the place where I may turn into psycho mummy. And Nobody likes Psycho Mummy at all. I don't like being Psycho Mummy, but it's a flag. It's a flag to myself, right? It's like, okay, we have to retreat. We have to pull back. All is not well. And I have to go, okay, what is it? What's going on in me that is not well? And I have to ask the question. It's like, is it my kids? Is it something else? it that I'm just under pressure? I don't have enough capacity. Is it that I'm just exasperated and if I'm exasperated, how, how do I go find some capacity for that to keep showing up in a way that I ideally want to show up? and that's, that's the challenge. And I, you're right. can, burnout can happen in two very different spheres of life, but they both have an effect on the other, right? If I'm. stressed at work, it's very easy for that to spill over onto my kids. If I'm having a hard time navigating parenting through a situation, it can have an impact on the work that I'm trying to do. And it all is just one big muddily mess. But I have learned. Again, it's coming back to getting help. I have learned if I want to live a big life, and this is another thing to say out loud and say, it's okay to say this out loud. I think it's essential. We do have help. And, you know, we can call that a privilege thing. We can call that, you know, for a certain segment of society who has a certain amount of money, but. I know having built a company from when I had absolutely no money, there was no way I could have done that and had small children without help. When I first started in the very, very early days of being an entrepreneur, I had teeny teeny tiny babies. but it wasn't possible to figure out having small children and running a business. all by myself without having someone else in the mix to help us both. we're a fledgling business. neither of us have got an income. Neither of us. are working other than in the business, but I knew it was a case of we are not going to be able to make anything happen unless I get help. And technically we had no resources to pay for that help. None. But it was a case of, well, if we don't find a way to get some help, and if we don't find a way to pay for... navigating, somehow having some support in the mix here. Nothing. We're not going to be able to build anything. And so very early on. I must've had under a one year old. we had our first au pair. Come and come and do a few hours, a few hours a day. That was what it started as a few hours a day, just to give me a few hours of relief from juggling a baby around and trying to work at the same time. And we went on like that for quite a while until I finally realized, I need full, I need full time. I need from nine to five every single day. If I'm going to do a day job. and gradually I moved money around. You know, I robbed Peter to pay Paul that, you know, juggling the cash in and out and not having enough cash, I saw childcare help as being like drinking water. I mean, it was so essential if I was going to make anything happen. And I think so many of us don't see it as essential. We think I can try and carry on and make all these things happen. And I can work around school or I can work around preschool But we need to not be martyrs in this arena. We have to own it and we have to say, this is what I want. That's what I want to do with my life. And in order to be able to do that and be a good mummy and not turn into psycho mummy. I have to get help and I have to figure out a way to pay for it. And so since my kids have been teeny, teeny tiny, we have always had someone in our lives. And that means I don't do a lot of other things that full -time moms do. but it does mean I get help and. I show up for my kids in ways that only I can show up for them for. I can be there, be present, be meaningful. I'm still not playing Monopoly because that game lasts for absolutely forever. But I do want to be present for them and I do want to have emotional capacity for them and be there for them in ways that they need me and not someone else. Everything else I can outsource. Yeah, I love what you said about childcare is like drinking water. And unfortunately for me, it took me a long time to give myself permission to get help because I was like, well, I can figure it out. I can do it. And I did it for a long time without any help, aside from a little bit here and there from family and friends. But I'm talking about reliable, like you said, like nine to five, five days a week help. it again, I needed to give myself permission to do that. And I gave myself permission to do that. What, because I went into burnout mode and I had such strong signposts saying, you need help. Hello. Like anyone can see it. You're down. that's what it took for me. And I think that's unfortunate that I would like to give everybody here permission to get help what do you say to those who say, just can't afford it? It's not affordable to have childcare. I would say that there are different forms of help. Having been somebody who also has struggled in the past financially where I'm like, I don't have it, I don't have it. There are ways to be creative to get help. There are ways to set up your life in a community where maybe you connect with another single mom who also needs help and you carpool and you do these things. and you sort of exchange, I'm a big member of the buy nothing community, which I don't know if you've ever heard of it, but it's this mentality of you give everything away, you receive everything, including time and energy, by the way. So like, let's say you think you need somebody to help you with something, you ask for help. So I think that we're getting more and more creative in our society about what it means to help. You know, it takes a community to raise children. And I think there are creative ways to ask for help. But the key is to ask for help, which is listening today, I'm giving you permission to ask for help. I'm giving you permission to get help if you can afford it. Fantastic. If you can't to get creative and to think who is in my community, you know, maybe my mother can live nearby. Maybe my sister, my aunt, my whatever. I'm thinking as a single mom because I adopted my children on my own. I've had to get very creative. What And that's the same as entrepreneurs. We're often used to being creative with figuring out how to fund stuff. So why shouldn't we also be creative with figuring out how to figure out childcare? It's the same thing. And often we think, well, I should, the mentality is, is I should be doing that. I should be able to do that myself. And the reality is we can't, was a big light bulb moment for me to realize, ding, ding, it's costing you money to not get help. Yeah, we talked about this whole lot over the last year, haven't we? It's the opportunity cost. And that's the interesting thing that you're talking about right there is like, can't afford not to do this. If you want to make big things happen, you can't afford not to have childcare. You can't afford not to take care of yourself and watch when you're on signs of burnout. You can't afford to stay on that pathway that's taking you nowhere. And that's what we've got to switch in our brains, I think. Yeah, I think it's you physically can't afford to not get help. But also I think if you really literally crunch the numbers, you financially cannot afford to not get help. So I think another interesting question to ask ourselves, so just following on from that whole idea we were just talking about is what mindsets do we have that keep us stuck believing there are things that we have to do or we should do and childcare and looking after our children can fall into the, into the camp of I have to do it like this. I should. be able to run a full -time job and manage my children's lives and all their stuff that they have going on and ferry them around. I should be able to. it's really easy for us to not even be aware of our shoulds. And that is interesting to notice, I think. What are the, what are the things that we believe that we should be doing, must be doing, that trip us up and cause us to walk a path that's walking towards burnout. Well, I think it's back to the taboo about, know, motherhood is infinitely joyful and effortless. And you should enjoy every second of it because God forbid you do not, something's wrong with you. Right. And so it's like, I should be the one doing my children's laundry and driving them to school every morning. But who said that? What kind of pressure is that? Who said that? Who told you that? That's my favourite phrase at the moment. I'm playing around with in my head is who said that? Who told you that? I'm discovered for me, and that was a beautiful discovery when I got an au pair and I had to help with somebody shuttling them to school and making their sandwiches and snacks and doing their laundry and folding their laundry and all of that. I actually had time to go to the park with them to go for swim, to take my son, my 11 year old son on a one -on -one lunch and while the other two little ones are with the au pair or to take one of my little ones while the other two are doing something. All of a sudden this world opened up to time with my children and the joy returned. The joy returned. Like, my gosh, I went mini golfing with my son just by himself and then we went out to lunch and it was great. I can't do that when I don't have an au pair. What? we have to realize that we get choices, right? And it's up to us to navigate how we spend our energy, how we focus our time, how we give of ourselves. And are we treading a path that's creating more life than it is death? Because if there's more death, you're on the path. burnout. If there's more life, you're on the path to making big things happen. And that's the, that's the balance and understanding, you know, what are the things that keep me in death? Are there things that I think that keep me trapped in behaviors and thinking that, that just wearing me out. And this can be in business too. It doesn't have to just be in parenting. It can also be in like, am I doing things that are causing death to my soul over and over and over? And I just think I have to do them. Who told you that? That's my favourite question that I keep asking myself at the moment. Who, who made you think that? And often it's not, it's not a person. Like it's my own thinking. It's like, well my belief about this. Made me think that my belief about what being a great mother looks like. Made me think that like an outdated operating system made me think that. And we have to keep updating our operating systems, right? We have to keep updating our thinking so that we aren't stuck on the path towards death, the path towards burnout. And sometimes that just takes a moment. Like the friend. I was meeting with last week who said, I'm actually feeling really burned out. Whoa. Step back. Stop doing all of the things that feel like they're death to you right now. Stop. Stop. Get everything to just tick by and stop, stop investing yourself in stuff that's killing you. If it's killing you, it's going to kill the business for sure. But I can tell you who said that. It's vestigial misogyny who said that. No, it's true. It's true. It's the 1952 I'm in my kitchen baking cookies for my children and making sure. I mean, it's like, come on. Like, no, who said that? That's what it is. It's like those little You know, like having a tailbone, we don't really need a tailbone anymore. We're evolving, right? We don't have a tail. But guess what that voice is still there telling us you should be picking up your children yourself. You didn't go to that bake sale to raise money for the fundraiser for this PTA. And it's like, no, I didn't. because I don't need a tailbone anymore. Remember, I don't have a tail. I get to build my business. I don't have to be cooking. And that's the point, right? We get to have a choice. And I think we get to choose. You get to choose. We get to choose. Nobody gets to choose for us. nobody's saying that going to the bake sale is a bad thing. You want to go to the bake sale, you rock your socks off and you love it and may it bring you life and joy and health. You don't want to go to the bake sale. You don't want to, you don't want to do that. Don't do it. And we, that's the choice we have. We get to choose how we invest ourselves. We get to choose path we live on. And we have to recognise when there are strong societal pressures or forces at work around us that make us think we should be, we must be, we're not good enough if we're not doing that. There are so few women who have made really, really big things happen. And it is time to change that and to do that, we have to start saying no to a whole bunch of stuff. We have to start saying, no, I can't live like that. I can't do that. That is not going to give me life. So that is not going to be on my agenda this week, this year, anytime soon. And that's what we need permission for. Permission to say no, permission to stop, permission to get off the train that says this is what I have to do. No, we do not. We get to choose life, we get to choose health, and we get to do big, amazing things. That's right. I love it. Yay. This is no, mean, seriously, I feel invigorated by what you just said. It's we get to choose. And anytime when we start feeling like I don't have a choice, I just have to keep doing this. I have to keep washing socks. I have to keep writing emails or have to keep doing this. No, we don't just take a step back and say, who told me that? Who told me I had to? Nobody did. You did. Society did. All right. Well, let's, let's throw that out the window and start over. That's, that's the call That's what we've got to get into here. That's what it's going to take to make big things happen. Well, we'd love your thoughts on this topic of burnout. You know, how have you dealt with it? Have you been burned out? How have you restored yourself? Yeah, tell us everyone what has inspired you about this episode. What are you going to do differently because of what you've heard today? And let's get on the path towards life together. We can't wait to hear your stories. Thanks for joining us, everyone. Bye for now. Thank you, bye.